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Post by pokeria1 on Jun 19, 2009 21:46:02 GMT -5
Well, I figured that I might try and find the location of Eric's kingdom. Ok, there's some debate as to the exact location of Eric's kingdom. Some say it's in the south mediterranean, others say it's at Denmark. However, I thnk I've found a very logical answer to where it's located. For our first evidence, we need to determine the time period of this movie. First off, they used galleons that were used until the late 19th century in favor of more recent weapons. Also, the kitchen used a Kitchen stove, which is still prevalent by the time of the 19th century. We know from the TV series at least that the movie takes place in 1837, as Ariel saved Hans Christian Anderson in one episode, and he began writing the original Little Mermaid in 1836, and since Ariel was 15 in the series and 16 in the movie, that means that the lexicon takes place in 1837, thus making it 19th century. Now, for the second evidence, we know that Atlantica is near Iceland thanks to a map supplied by Morgana in "Return to the Sea" (Which, unfortunately, I can't find, as apparantly My Little Mermaid doesn't have that screenshot. If anyone can supply that screenshot that shows the map to Atlantica, I'll be grateful). Now, knowing how in the original movie, she had at least five and a half hours (daylight savings time) to reach the outskirts of Eric's kingdom after first transforming into a human (since 7:30 AM whereabouts is when the rising sun looks like it did when Ariel breached the surface for the first time as a human, and the and the atmospheric particles by the time Ariel woke up was during late morning, early afternoon.). Knowing these facts, it would be impossible for it to be the South Mediterrainean, seeing how it would take much more than six hours for a human getting used to her legs to swim to the South Mediterrainean (In fact, by estimates, it would take little more than six months, without drowning, which by that time it would be far too late.). Also, it's common practice that those who live luxuriously import chefs from France (France is basically the master of cuisine), so Louis doesn't mean that it's in France. Also, there are windmills in Eric's kingdom, as evidenced in this screenshot: Windmills are a staple Sweden, Norway, and Denmark. Also, if you look closely at the part where Ariel is given the reins, the shoes shes holding are clogs, which are also staples to those countries. Not to mention that "Eric" is a name of Danish/Norweigan origin (I myself am of Norwegian descent). Unlike in America, where it's basically a melting pot of cultures, in Denmark, or heck, any country that's not America, most names that you find either originate from that country/language, or are that particular language's translation of another language's name (eg, Juan is Spanish for John, Giovanni is Italian for John, etc). So far, all evidence points to either Sweden, Norway, or Denmark. Going by the old Atlas, the closest that it's near is Norway. It's the only country that makes logical sense. First off, the shoreline in the movie PERFECTLY matches the overall shoreline of Norway. Norway is also closest to the Arctic sea, as that's where Merpeople and Humanity alike faced off against Morgana. In fact, the real Denmark was arguably seen in the first few moments of "Return to the Sea" with the Seagull flying over land and then over the ocean until we gazed upon the palace and then to the baptysmal ship. I have still yet to find some crucial data to confirm where it might be (Like for instance, that map of Atlantica's location in "Return to the Sea. If anyone's willing to supply me with the screenshot, or at least tell me when one can see it in the movie, I'll appreciate it.), but so far, the data points to Norway. As for the Greater Flamingoes, I think they may have migrated north, as it's summer by the time the movie takes place (as evident by the trees)
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Post by Jazzy on Jun 20, 2009 0:29:30 GMT -5
Normally I'm all for just leaving all of that a mystery and it doesn't matter just a cartoon, but you have found some cool things that suggest you are right . I NEVER noticed that screencap of Eric's kingdom with the windmills, that really is a dead give away. It makes sense they would try to keep that story in the region of where it was written. Cool findings, thanks for sharing your insight.
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Post by arielnmelody on Jun 20, 2009 10:54:13 GMT -5
wow thats cool that you figured it out!
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Post by fathomsbelow on Jun 20, 2009 13:46:09 GMT -5
I'm sorry but I have to disagree. I mean..the architecture to me seems way too Mediterranean. Eric himself looks like he could be from that area. Windmills aren't limited to the areas listed. For example, I've found quite a few photos of windmills in Greece: travel.webshots.com/album/552601826jgBpCiI wasn't under the impression that Atlantica was near Iceland. I always believed that Morgana had to hide from Triton, so it really wouldn't make sense for her to stay anywhere near Atlantica.
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Post by pokeria1 on Jun 20, 2009 13:55:27 GMT -5
I wasn't under the impression that Atlantica was near Iceland. I always believed that Morgana had to hide from Triton, so it really wouldn't make sense for her to stay anywhere near Atlantica. There was a scene in TLM2 where Morgana gave Melody a map shortly after the former turned the latter into a Mermaid, and the map was supposed to show where Atlantica was (when she tricked her into basically stealing the Trident from her Grandpa, King Triton). Also, about the windmills, even with that, the Windmills were distinctly of Dutch/Norwegian design.
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Post by fathomsbelow on Jun 20, 2009 14:00:35 GMT -5
Yes, I've seen that scene. I have the movie. But there's really no way to tell exactly how far away Atlantica was from the hideout. I mean, the map didn't say how many miles/knots/kilometers away it was. I'd like to direct your attention to this photo. These are some more windmills in Greece. Now I'll give you a point for the windmill, but the structure seems quite similar to part of Eric's castle( sorry, I couldn't find a screencap so I'll use this model that was at Tokyo Disneyland ): Not only that, but in your picture you can spot palm trees. There are no palm trees in Norway.
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Post by pokeria1 on Jun 20, 2009 15:05:28 GMT -5
The biggest problem is that Ariel (Human form), took about five-six hours to reach the outskirts of Eric's Kingdom, and as evidenced by the map, Atlantica is all the way in Iceland.
Going by the average swimming distance of humans (2.07 meters per second, or 6'9.5" feet per second), the fact that she is completely inexperienced in swimming in her human form, and the distance from Greece from Iceland is approximately 2600 miles. n order to swim nonstop from Atlantica/Leviathan as a human while being dragged by a fish and a crab, she would take possibly 562 hours at least, which far exceeds her time limit (her time limit to get Eric to kiss her is approximately 72 hours), meaning, she would have failed before she ever started, Therefore, Greece simply cannot be the location.
Norway, on the other hand, has 1091 miles or 1755 km between it and Iceland, and it's at least lower by a lot compared to the distance.
Besides which, an entire fleet takes a while to prepare, not to mention the travel between Greece and Iceland would probably take weeks, if not months. At least with Norway and Iceland, they are quite near each other, so it will at least take them about a few hours to arrive, at most.
Oh, and as for the architecture, Eric's castle has tiles, not straw.
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Post by fathomsbelow on Jun 20, 2009 15:57:53 GMT -5
I'm aware of that, but the tiles aren't the point I'm afraid. The body of the stucture is what I'm getting at. And there really is no evidence that Atlantica is in Iceland. Really it could be anywhere. Like I said, if Morgana had any sense, she wouldn't hide near Atlantica, if for the sake of argument, it is near Iceland. And I reiterate, there are no palm trees in Norway. The filmmakers even said that they based Eric's kingdom off of Mediterranean architecture. Plus, there's no way Eric is Scandinavian My guess would be Sicily judging by the sheer size of his kingdom. Small and Mediterranean. Oh and about the tiles, this is rather familiar. Here is an Italian windmill:
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Post by pokeria1 on Jun 20, 2009 16:25:35 GMT -5
I'm aware of that, but the tiles aren't the point I'm afraid. The body of the stucture is what I'm getting at. And there really is no evidence that Atlantica is in Iceland. Really it could be anywhere. Like I said, if Morgana had any sense, she wouldn't hide near Atlantica, if for the sake of argument, it is near Iceland. And I reiterate, there are no palm trees in Norway. Well, whatever the case may be, I doubt that Sicily would have the irregular shoreline that, you know, Norway is somewhat famous for having (Which, BTW, that kingdom has a very similar shoreline). This shoreline is especially apparant in the scenes where Ariel first discovers her legs, Eric walks Ariel to the castle, and the opening scene of Return to the Sea. Also, if there's no evidence that Atlantica is near Iceland, then what was that Map that Morgana gave her? I mean, it clearly showed Atlantica being near Iceland. As far as I know, that still counts as evidence. Geographically, going by the irregular shoreline, it seems to match Norway more. As for the style, I heard on IMDb that northern europe had already taken up Romanticism by the 19th century (and from what was said, it seemed they were meaning more than just the style of writing. The way it was worded made it seem as though they were talking about crafting, architecture, and other things.) Well, it's your call, but since that Map seemed to confirm that Atlantica is near Iceland (not to mention that the fleet arrived at Morgana's hideout far too quickly to be from Sicily or especially Greece), not to mention that the overall geography matched Norway, It still seems apparant that this is supposed to be Norway. I still need to find the screenshot of that Map though (I can't make my final analysis without that key point).
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Post by fathomsbelow on Jun 20, 2009 16:43:36 GMT -5
I'm aware of that, but the tiles aren't the point I'm afraid. The body of the stucture is what I'm getting at. And there really is no evidence that Atlantica is in Iceland. Really it could be anywhere. Like I said, if Morgana had any sense, she wouldn't hide near Atlantica, if for the sake of argument, it is near Iceland. And I reiterate, there are no palm trees in Norway. Well, whatever the case may be, I doubt that Sicily would have the irregular shoreline that, you know, Norway is somewhat famous for having (Which, BTW, that kingdom has a very similar shoreline). This shoreline is especially apparant in the scenes where Ariel first discovers her legs, Eric walks Ariel to the castle, and the opening scene of Return to the Sea. Also, if there's no evidence that Atlantica is near Iceland, then what was that Map that Morgana gave her? I mean, it clearly showed Atlantica being near Iceland. As far as I know, that still counts as evidence. Geographically, going by the irregular shoreline, it seems to match Norway more. As for the style, I heard on IMDb that northern europe had already taken up Romanticism by the 19th century (and from what was said, it seemed they were meaning more than just the style of writing. The way it was worded made it seem as though they were talking about crafting, architecture, and other things.) Well, it's your call, but since that Map seemed to confirm that Atlantica is near Iceland (not to mention that the fleet arrived at Morgana's hideout far too quickly to be from Sicily or especially Greece), not to mention that the overall geography matched Norway, It still seems apparant that this is supposed to be Norway. I still need to find the screenshot of that Map though (I can't make my final analysis without that key point). I still have to disagree. The climate and look of Eric's kingdom in no way suggests Norway or Scandinavia for that. Besides, the filmmakers didn't do as much research for TLM2 as they did for TLM, so I don't really count Morgana's map as a credible source. First of all, her lair was not necessarily Iceland. There are polar bears, and penguins, which is a huge mistake. Polar bears live in the Arctic, and penguins in Antarctica. So Atlantica really could be anywhere, since this contradiction pokes a hole in the idea. Eric is Germanic in origin, but still anyone can have that name. Like in Phantom of the Opera "Erik" ( with slight change of spelling ), but the novel itself is French. Again, Eric's looks suggest that he is by no means a Northern European. With the wavy hair and dark complexion, combined with the architecture of his home, it has to be Mediterranean. Triton's name comes from Greek, since the legendary Triton was the son of Poseidon, the Greek god of the sea, and since the Romans basically copied the Greek gods, his name origin can be tied to them as well. Atlantica suggests Greek or Roman/Italian as well. As for the shoreline: Sicily:
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Post by pokeria1 on Jun 20, 2009 17:10:22 GMT -5
Hmm, good point, I guess the only other aspect that might hint at Atlantica's location, at least, is "Metal fish" with the fact that they had saved Hans Christian Anderson and brought him back to Denmark/Norway right where he belonged in presumably less than a day.
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Post by fathomsbelow on Jun 20, 2009 17:16:01 GMT -5
That still doesn't make much of a difference. If Atlantica is so close to Eric's kingdom, and you're saying it's in Norway..the climate doesn't fit at all. And the architecture is again, Mediterranean. And again Eric himself looks too Mediterranean. I can only deduce that Eric's kingdom is in the Mediterranean( I think it's Sicily ). But that's how I came to my conclusion ::shrugs::
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Post by pokeria1 on Jun 20, 2009 17:53:09 GMT -5
That still doesn't make much of a difference. If Atlantica is so close to Eric's kingdom, and you're saying it's in Norway..the climate doesn't fit at all. And the architecture is again, Mediterranean. And again Eric himself looks too Mediterranean. I can only deduce that Eric's kingdom is in the Mediterranean( I think it's Sicily ). But that's how I came to my conclusion ::shrugs:: Well, Atlantica may not actually be close to Eric's kingdom, and the only reason it SEEMs to be close would be the time length (Most likely the Merpeople have a much faster swimming rate than Humans. We can guess that Scuttle's rock/Ship Graveyard is about twelve hours away from Atlantica (by mermaid swimming measure), at most, due to the fact that the sky's colors during scuttle's introduction indicates something like 2PM or 3PM, and it was dusk/night when they get back to Atlantica, not to mention the position of the Moon indicates that it's around 9PM. However, we can say that the time distance between at least Eric's kingdom and the serpentine lair (you know, Ursula's Hideout) is at least six hours, by human standards, as evidenced by how long Ariel in Human form took to get from Ursula's lair and that beach in the outskirts of Eric's kingdom.). I'd have to estimate that the Mermaid's swimming speed overall is probably significantly faster than a human, at the least, and possibly more than a ship's top speed, as evidenced by the fact that it took barely that long for Ariel and her Family to leave Atlantica for the Arctic, among other things.
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Post by fathomsbelow on Jun 20, 2009 18:34:15 GMT -5
I'm still assuming it is close. Because, if you remember in the original The Little Mermaid, before the storm, Ariel is in her grotto ( which is in Atlantica ), and she sees Eric's ship passing overhead. After the storm, Eric's crew is able to get to the kingdom by rowboat at dawn( but we don't neccessarily know that they arrived before Ariel and Eric did ). And if you remember, the ship was right above Atlantica. That's where I'm coming from with this.
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Post by pokeria1 on Jun 20, 2009 18:51:17 GMT -5
I'm still assuming it is close. Because, if you remember in the original The Little Mermaid, before the storm, Ariel is in her grotto ( which is in Atlantica ), and she sees Eric's ship passing overhead. After the storm, Eric's crew is able to get to the kingdom by rowboat at dawn( but we don't neccessarily know that they arrived before Ariel and Eric did ). And if you remember, the ship was right above Atlantica. That's where I'm coming from with this. Hmm... Well, Ariel could have swam pretty quickly to shore so as to try and get him to dry land (As I said before, Merpeople are probably faster swimmers than humans), so that may end up being far away from shore, but she managed to get him there in about two hours (and she was certainly at the shore for more than that time.), They probably arrived after Ariel and Eric got there, due to these logical things (A merperson would most likely be faster than a rowboat at any chance). Plus, having it travel across a Hurricane is can be dangerous because of the wind speeds, and the waves (and theoretically, if it bumps wave to wave, especially if it falls right from the cresent, it goes a bit faster from the shock.). Plus, you would still have to explain Metal Fish, anyways, since Hans Christian anderson (who is Norwegian/Danish) was rescued by Ariel, and as it is, it's a bit unlikely for Ariel to try and get him back from Atlantica (assuming it's near Sicily) to Denmark/Norway, even WITH her speed.
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Post by fathomsbelow on Jun 20, 2009 18:58:06 GMT -5
No, I don't think I have to explain it. I repeat this point: no palm trees in Scandinavia. And this one: Eric isn't Scandinavian. Add this to the climate and architecture. And that one lone mountain in Eric's kingdom reminds me of Mount Etna on the island of Sicily.
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Post by pokeria1 on Jun 20, 2009 19:23:32 GMT -5
No, I don't think I have to explain it. I repeat this point: no palm trees in Scandinavia. And this one: Eric isn't Scandinavian. Add this to the climate and architecture. And that one lone mountain in Eric's kingdom reminds me of Mount Etna on the island of Sicily. What are you talking about? I wasn't even referring to Eric's kingdom when I mentioned Norway/Denmark in my last post (except when I said "assuming that [Atlantica] is near Sicily"). When I was mentioning Norway/Denmark, I was actrually referencing the events from the episode "Metal Fish". You know, the one about Ariel saving Hans Christian Anderson (Whom, BTW, IS Norweigian/Danish) and taking him back to his own country?
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Post by fathomsbelow on Jun 20, 2009 19:36:21 GMT -5
I'm talking about the subject at hand--the location of Prince Eric's kingdom. Oh I've seen the episode alright. Hans Christian Anderson was Danish for the record. I'm saying that that is irrelevant. There's no way Eric's kingdom could be in Norway or Denmark. It's just too far-fetched. Though I do understand where you got the idea, the filmmakers were influenced by Mediterranean architecture more than Northern European, and that is most likely where they intended it to take place. The same people didn't work on the TV Series and Sequel, so that's why there are so many discrepancies.
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Post by pokeria1 on Jun 20, 2009 19:44:25 GMT -5
I kinda gave up on that subject after realizing that I've lost (mainly after you mentioned the fact that there were real-life errors in Return to the Sea), and my saying "good point" was my way of saying "ok, you win." In fact, just to make it more clear, I will say explicitly:
Ok, you win, I guess Eric's kingdom is in Sicily.
However, while it's now agreed upon that Eric's kingdom was Sicily, we have still got to determine the location of Atlantica, hence the current discussion on Atlantica's location. We know it has to be between Sicily and Denmark (and the only reason for Denmark was because of "Metal Fish" implying that it was nearby.)
BTW, maybe we should work on a project making a map of the undersea world of TLM (Including the areas of not just Atlantica and the areas from the first movie, but also other areas from at least the TV series. Maybe if we can tweak on Return to the Sea's locations just to make it more realistic, we can include Return to the Sea, as well.).
EDIT:
I think I figured out a way that Triton's palace can be near Iceland and yet still also rule at an area between Sicily and Denmark.
Did you notice that Triton's castle looked quite different in "Return to the Sea" than it did in TLM (IE, did it look... downsized to you?)? That castle could have been a private retreat castle, if you will (it's not uncommon for those of Noble birth to have multiple places to live in.).
Sure, it may be a simple animation goof, but that may also imply that the palace was a retreat, as well.
Whatever the case is, I can at least say that the Main Atlantican Palace is not really closeby in terms of Sicily, I mean, maybe it is under the Merpeople's point of view, but not to a human's pov (especially since the speed of a Merperson swimming outclasses a human's, and possibly even a ship.)
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Post by fathomsbelow on Jun 20, 2009 19:58:47 GMT -5
I never saw it as a contest, but it was interesting nontheless The map project sounds fun, but I'd have to watch the series again. Sorry I can't help you with the screencap of Melody's map. I looked at Magical Screencaps but they didn't have any. Sorry if I was getting off topic a bit.
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